Brady: Yeah, and it’s interesting because you’re talking about the banking side of things, but you also have a very tech-focused approach. You were an early adopter of OpenAI’s technology. Can you talk a little bit about that and what drew you to that partnership?
Siemiatkowski: Yeah, so we’ve been working with OpenAI for a number of years now. And the way we started was that we actually share a Slack channel with OpenAI. And we started because we were looking at how can we use AI to make our products better. And we started exploring different technologies and we came across OpenAI and saw that they had a technology that was very advanced and they had a partnership with Microsoft. So we got to know them and we started to use their technology to improve the customer experience. So we started with our customer service chatbot and then we started to use it to improve our fraud detection as well. And we’ve seen great results. We’ve seen that we can improve our response time, we can increase customer satisfaction and we can reduce fraud. And I think that working with AI is very important for Klarna because we want to create a seamless and effortless experience for our customers and we see AI as a very important tool to achieve that.
Lev-Ram: Yeah, and I think that’s really interesting because a lot of people think of Klarna as a fintech company, but in reality, you’re very much a tech company as well. And I think that leads us into the conversation about culture and structure within the company. Can you talk a little bit about how you’ve built a culture that values both the fintech side of things and the tech side of things?
Siemiatkowski: Yeah, so I think that culture is very important for us at Klarna. We want to create a culture where people are passionate about what they do and where they feel that they can make a difference. And I think that the way we’ve built our culture is that we’ve created an environment where people can experiment and where they can take risks and where they can learn from their mistakes. And I think that’s very important because we’re in a fast-moving industry and we need to be able to move fast and we need to be able to adapt to changes in the market. And I think that’s why we’ve built a culture that values experimentation and that values learning.
Brady: It’s interesting because you’re talking about experimentation and learning from mistakes. Can you share an example of a time when maybe something didn’t go as planned and what you learned from it?
Siemiatkowski: Yeah, so I think that one example that comes to mind is when we introduced some at-work benefits at Klarna. So we introduced things like free creative time, where people could work on whatever they wanted for a certain amount of time every week. We also introduced free Coca-Cola in the office. And what we found was that these benefits didn’t really have the impact that we were hoping for. People didn’t really use the free creative time and people didn’t really appreciate the free Coca-Cola. And I think that what we learned from that experience is that it’s important to listen to your employees and to understand what they value and what they want. And I think that’s why we’ve shifted our focus to things like career development and training, which are things that our employees really value and appreciate.
Lev-Ram: Yeah, that’s a great example of how you can learn from your mistakes and shift your focus. And I think that’s a really important lesson for leaders to take away. Sebastian, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s been a pleasure speaking with you.
Siemiatkowski: Thank you for having me. It’s been a pleasure.
[Interview ends.]
Lev-Ram: Thanks for listening to this episode of Leadership Next. We’ll be back next week with another great guest. In the meantime, don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. And follow us on Twitter @FortuneMagazine for the latest news and updates. See you next time!
Siemiatkowski: Now, adding a card to the mix is basically the ability for people that really love Klarna to use us everywhere, who prefer that debit and credit kind of experience, and they want to have the availability to use that where our network is still not available today.
Brady: I love that you call them self-aware avoiders. We’ll get into the demographics. I think I’m a blissfully loyalty card chaser, so that screams Gen X. One of the things when I think about Klarna, I’m hard pressed to think of a bigger fan of generative AI to the point where you actually put out a press release, I think in your first month, talking about how I think it was the equivalent of 700 full-time agents through ChatGPT. Talk about how transformative that has been for you.
Siemiatkowski: I mean, I think it’s amazing. First and foremost, I would like to say something which is that I’m actually one of the people who are kind of skeptical about new technologies and people have been asking me about crypto obviously for a lot of years. And I always said like, if I can’t convince my mom to use it, I don’t understand the value of it. And so like I never got my mom to understand why she would have a bitcoin, and I still haven’t convinced her.
Brady: But she does use Klarna.
Siemiatkowski: But she does use Klarna.
Brady: OK, there you go.
Siemiatkowski: And so, I think when gen AI came out, it was very clear from day one that this actually has practical application. We can use it. But it’s difficult to get it to practical application because it’s a new technology, you have to figure it out. And as much as you will see a lot of noise currently about people doing press releases about this in their product launches, few things we have seen have actually come to like serious results that have business impact. And so when we achieve that with the customer service experience where actually the AI chat has a similar and, many times, higher customer satisfaction than people interacting with human agents, we felt that that was quite an interesting data point. And we wanted to share that because, at the same point of time, we feel a little bit that society is not necessarily— and politicians are not necessarily — taking enough consideration to the implications it will have on jobs, which is why obviously sharing that 700 number, we knew it was somewhat controversial and some people would, you know, react to it. But at the same point in time, we said, look, in the short term, we hire big customer service companies. They have hundreds of thousands of employees. They’re just going to, when we have less errands, they’re going to send their errands elsewhere. These people will still have jobs. But in the longer term, in the few coming years, this will have severe and big implications for society. And we think it’s time to think about that more proactively.
Brady: Ninety percents of your agents are using it daily. What were that last 10%, who are they?
Siemiatkowski: That’s a good question. I haven’t asked. But I mean I think it’s interesting.
Brady: They have a target on their back.
Siemiatkowski: Yeah, because obviously, obviously people are nervous about jobs. Like, not only at Klarna, but in general. Like what is the implication specifically for white collar jobs, which is are the ones that are mostly affected. But what we’ve told our employees is a few things. Like one, we have stopped hiring since about six months back, which means that we are actually shrinking in number of employees and Klarna, just as most tech companies, we have about 20% that normal attrition every year. So people stay on average five years, which is kind of typical for tech companies. Which means if we stop hiring, we’re 20% smaller in a year, right? So that’s one thing. So we stopped hiring because we understood that eventually we believe we can do more with less people. However, at the same point in time, I made a clear commitment to our employees saying, Look, the other part is we expect payroll costs to be lower within a year, but we expect to pay more per individual. So we believe this will allow us to actually invest more per individual, so meaning salaries will increase more. Right. And then finally, the other thing is because we lean so much into AI and this now become this, which I think is actually fair, that people think that Klarna is a hotbed of people that understand AI. Our employees are getting very attractive offers from other employers. So I think it’s created a very positive spin, like it was a nervous spin initially, but now I start seeing that like people actually see, look, it’s positive for us as employees as well in this case. So I feel that it’s worked fairly well.
Lev-Ram: We understand you allowed Sam Altman from OpenAI to basically use Klarna like an AI sandbox. So I’m just curious to hear how that relationship started. Obviously we’re seeing OpenAI spark some really interesting partnerships. This is definitely one of them. So tell us about it.
Siemiatkowski: Well, I think to me, when I tried it myself first in November, a little bit more than a year ago now, I was like, Wow, this was like a Google experience back 20 years ago when I tried Google the first time. But even better, I would say to some degree. And like it became very obvious to me that Sam and OpenAI would be a company that would be very hard to reach very soon, and then create relationships. I was like, I better move fast before it’s too late. So I made sure to get…
Brady: Get on the calendar.
Siemiatkowski: Yeah, exactly. Get on the calendar.
But then, once they realize that the AI is actually providing them with accurate and quick responses, they tend to be more satisfied with the experience. And I think that’s why customers react more positively to interacting with AI chatbots versus humans – because they feel like they are getting instant, accurate, and focused responses without any distractions or delays. And that’s a key advantage for us at Klarna in using AI technology in our customer interactions.” But we try to give our teams the autonomy to make decisions and drive innovation within their own areas. And it’s been really successful for us in terms of moving quickly and staying ahead in a regulated industry. We’re constantly learning and evolving, just like any other company, but we’ve found a structure that works for us and helps us thrive in a rapidly changing environment.” But it’s not like the only thing that makes people spend money. And so one of the things that I think is interesting is that we can actually use technology to nudge people in the right direction. So for instance, if you see that somebody is spending a lot of money on unhealthy food, you could potentially nudge them towards spending that money on something healthier. Or if somebody is spending a lot of money on something that is not good for the environment, you could potentially nudge them towards spending that money on something that is more sustainable. So I think there’s a lot of potential in using technology to actually help people make better decisions when it comes to spending money. And I think that’s really where the future of financial services lies – in using technology to empower people to make better decisions for themselves and for the world around them. But what it taught me was the value of hard work and perseverance. I saw my parents struggle, but they never gave up. And that mindset has definitely shaped me as an entrepreneur. I knew that if I wanted something, I had to work for it.
And Burger King, well, that was my first job. I worked there when I was a teenager, flipping burgers and dealing with customers. It taught me a lot about customer service and the importance of a good work ethic. So, in a way, that experience also contributed to my entrepreneurial journey.
Overall, my upbringing and experiences have definitely influenced my approach to business and life in general. I know the value of hard work, the importance of making smart financial decisions, and the power of perseverance. And I think those lessons have served me well in building Klarna into what it is today.
Creo que, en cierta medida, cuando miraba a mis amigos suecos, todos vivían en una casa. Nosotros vivíamos en un apartamento. Incluso vivimos en algunos barrios bastante conflictivos por un tiempo. Y luego mis padres decidieron divorciarse cuando yo tenía ocho años. Y mi comprensión infantil de eso fue parcialmente, estaba relacionado con el dinero porque siempre era el tema en casa, que no teníamos dinero para esto y no teníamos dinero para aquello.
Así que creo que, en cierto modo, había una asociación para mí de que iba a lograrlo, iba a ganar dinero y luego íbamos a ser felices de nuevo. Y, desafortunadamente, luego te das cuenta en la vida de que no es tan fácil, aunque el dinero ayuda, pero no es tan fácil. No es como si automáticamente fuera a resolver todas tus relaciones. Y también siempre me inspiraron los empresarios. No sé por qué leí el libro de Richard Branson de Virgin muy temprano. Pensé que era increíble. Tenemos un empresario fantástico en Suecia, Ingvar Kamprad, que construyó IKEA, que fue la gran historia de éxito sueca de la época, H&M y otros también, pero IKEA en particular. Así que esto simplemente me resultaba inspirador. Y recuerdo que llamé a mi estación de radio local cuando tenía como 13 años y les dije: “Oigan, están haciendo los programas equivocados. Deberían hacer esto en su lugar”. Intentaba decirles. Siempre tuve esta idea loca de que me encantaba el negocio. Siempre pensé que era divertido e interesante.
Y luego, eventualmente, empezamos Klarna cuando teníamos 23 años. Así que, sí, creo que esa motivación, pero también tuvimos suerte. Creo que tanto hay cosas que me encantan de los Estados Unidos, también hay cosas que me encantaban de Suecia, y una de las cosas era que yo era un niño inmigrante, pero tenía atención médica gratuita. Así que si me pasaba algo, se resolvía solo. Tenía acceso gratuito a las escuelas. Las mejores escuelas no costaban nada. Por lo que pude acceder a las mejores escuelas, lo que creó una red de personas que eventualmente invirtieron en nuestro negocio. Así que también fue la sociedad la que realmente me dio, como niño inmigrante, muchas condiciones previas para básicamente cumplir la historia del sueño americano y creo que eso también es bastante genial.
Además, el gobierno en Suecia en ese momento era muy progresista y tenían lo que llamaban la reforma de la PC en casa, que básicamente era una subvención para las PC. Así que fue cuando pudimos permitirnos nuestro primer ordenador. Y como consecuencia de eso, muchos niños en Suecia, la alfabetización informática estaba mucho más allá que en muchos otros países. La banda ancha se construyó mucho más rápido en Suecia que en otros países. Así que Spotify, no es solo suerte que Spotify surgiera de Suecia. Fue porque teníamos una conexión de banda ancha que permitía transmitir canciones en lugar de descargarlas de iTunes mucho antes. Así que muchas de estas cosas que ocurrieron en los años noventa realmente tuvieron un buen efecto y creo que crearon muchas historias de éxito interesantes en Suecia.
Brady: Interesante. No sabía eso.
Lev-Ram: Bueno, última pregunta para ti, Sebastian. Y creo que esta es una bonita forma de cerrar la historia de la pobreza a la riqueza. ¿Qué nos puedes contar sobre una IPO?
Siemiatkowski: [Risas.] Bueno, mira, creo que me han hecho esta pregunta varias veces. Intento responderla de manera muy coherente, que para mí, los requisitos de la IPO siempre fueron que queríamos construir un negocio global. Un negocio global significa éxito en los Estados Unidos. El éxito en los Estados Unidos siempre se reducía a la conciencia de marca, pero también a un modelo de negocio sostenible. Y primero logramos firmar con casi la mitad de los 100 principales minoristas de EE. UU. que ahora están activos. Hay más de 40 millones de consumidores que utilizan Klarna en EE. UU. Y ahora, desde hace cinco trimestres, somos un negocio rentable en EE. UU. Vamos a superar los mil millones de dólares de ingresos en este mercado. Y hemos alcanzado esos objetivos que nos habíamos fijado. Y desde entonces, todo está listo para hacer la IPO, estamos trabajando en los preparativos y demás, pero no hemos establecido una fecha límite y aún no es algo oficial, pero es bastante probable que ocurra dentro del primer…
Brady: Estaba leyendo a principios del próximo año. ¿Eso no es cierto?
Siemiatkowski: Eso es lo que la gente dice. Sí, también he escuchado eso.
[Risas.]
Lev-Ram: Bueno, Sebastian, muchas gracias por acompañarnos.
Brady: Gracias.
Siemiatkowski: Gracias por tenerme.
Lev-Ram: Leadership Next es editado por Nicole Vergalla. Nuestro productor ejecutivo es Chris Joslin. Nuestro productor es Mason Cohn. Nuestro tema es de Jason Snell. Leadership Next es una producción de Fortune Media.
Brady: Los episodios de Leadership Next son producidos por el equipo editorial de Fortune. Las opiniones expresadas por los oradores y invitados del podcast son únicamente suyas y no reflejan las opiniones de Deloitte ni de su personal. Tampoco Deloitte respalda o recomienda a las personas o entidades destacadas en los episodios.
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